This is Zainab Ujjaini’s pilot episode for her solo show Zee-Nation. Here Zainab talks to podcaster Chirag Desai about podcasting and its pros and challenges. Chriag gives an insight into the world of podcasting, his journey as a story-teller, and some tips for beginners. Stay tuned to bet a buzz of Zee-Nation!
Intro music: www.bensound.com
This is Zainab Ujjaini’s pilot episode for her solo show Zee-Nation. Here Zainab talks to podcaster Chirag Desai about podcasting and its pros and challenges. Chriag gives an insight into the world of podcasting, his journey as a story-teller, and some tips for beginners. Stay tuned to bet a buzz of Zee-Nation!
Intro music: www.bensound.com
Hello, hello our beautiful listeners. This is Zainab, in "Zainab vs Podcasts". That's right we're talking about podcasts in a podcast. So content marketing, as we know comes in many different shapes and sizes. creators these days have a lot of options, blogs, social media posts, visuals, video, and you name it, it's there. So lately we've added podcasting to this mix. And podcasts seem to be a growing trend that is here to stay. And as a budding journalist myself, I thought why not start my own? I mean, how difficult would it get right? But I'm not sure that's what everybody thinks. So, we have my guest who will shed light on the very difficulties and the benefit of being into the podcasting industry. So a very warm welcome to Chirag , Desai founder of Amaeya Media, the UAE's largest Podcast Network that aims to unlock the untapped potential of on-demand audio content for the Middle East. Thank you so much for joining us today, Chirag
Chirag :It's my pleasure. Hello, everybody.
Zainab :How are you doing?
Chirag :I'm good, I'm good. It's good to talk to you as well. Obviously, as you know, I love talking about podcasts. And we'll have to, I'm going to leave it to you to keep me in check. And, you know, make sure we stop at 30 minutes. Otherwise, we'll be here for a couple of hours.
Zainab :I will make sure of that. All right, so start starting with the basics. First, tell us about your journey into the world of podcasting, and what was your inspiration behind this?
Chirag :Sure. So, I mean, my journey in podcasting starts sounds very typical, which is I was listening to a lot of podcasts. And, and I decided to start one. One of the, some of the larger ideas I had was to kind of just have better conversations. I mean, we still see this a lot, you know, where a lot of discussions I feel are happening, like over a headline rather than over actual content. And so it was a it was just a way of starting to, to change that conversation. So I started the talk show. I chose podcasting. This because I was listening to a lot I like the medium, something I was doing very regularly. I found it a lot less intense in a way right like it's something you can do on the side and you can kind of be doing other things while you're while you're at it. I just found a really nice way to listen to something and you can do that. I went to topics quite freely. And so that's what I started when I started talking to what I called subject matter experts to try and contextualise conversations and topics and get into them properly and so on. So that's really how I started the transition from there to, to media network and creating all of this other stuff happened a bit more gradually. But kind of two of the things I kept getting back from people who are listening to what I was doing was either a while like I, you know, I didn't know that there was this had happened. And that happened. I just I just heard the news that happened yesterday in the last week. And there's so much more behind that story, which I thought was just really interesting. Interesting, given what consumption is like today, right and it's very can be very quick and people don't have time and attention spans are low, etc. And then the other thing I kept hearing was, Oh, you know, I listened to x That was really cool. Can you do the same with this topic instead? Because I think I'm interested in. And so that made me look more and more into my space. And then on the weekend I was, I've been here most of my life. So I was kind of looking around and thinking of people and conversations I was having here and realising that I couldn't find that anywhere else. So. So that's kind of what made me think about starting or looking at this a bit more formally. And so that's when I started going to the drawing board and thinking about what I was going to talk about how I was going to talk about it. The first show idea I had was the one that became eventually tails of the trade, but it launched much, much later. But around that time, I had so many different ideas. I wanted to have so many different conversations. So as soon as I got somebody on board that was willing to do a conversation with me, I was like, Okay, fine. This is a show and that's a show and then suddenly, I was sitting on about three or four different things and that's when the idea of putting them under production banner, and whatever Seeing them as a network started. And
Zainab :So will you would you call yourself a storyteller?
Chirag :I do now. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't for a while because it just, it feels it feels odd right to say that about yourself like you're a storyteller. I'm like, isn't everybody or does everybody have a story? But now Yeah, now I do feel like, you know, considering all the episodes you've produced, and all the conversations we've covered, and the stories we've told that like, Okay, I think I feel like I'm in a better place to say, yeah, I'm a bit of a storyteller, or more specifically, an audio storyteller.
Zainab :Makes sense? So what kind of content Do you love making? And like, what, in your opinion, does the audience love or what they want to hear more of? Because, you know, there are already a million users, you know, listening to and loving podcasts on a daily basis. So what is that we need more out of podcasts now?
Chirag :Yeah, so it's a bit of a loaded question. Isn't it? So part one, which is the content I love making, I think, I think kind of at the moment is in two types. I love I love talking to people, right. So I think what became tastytrade, which is a show that I host as well, is just something I really enjoy doing. Because it allows me to kind of sit in depth with somebody, you know, a lot of our interviews go on for like two hours, it's a different matter that we then, you know, do a lot of work later to kind of make it into something that we feel a listener wants to hear, which is a 3045 minute show, kind of going over the story and kind of putting in the right insights and everything else. But I feel like the wherever there's an opportunity to bring something to the table that is real or authentic is maybe I think more real, right? Like it's realistic. So we talk to entrepreneurs, for example. And it's, you can really glorify something like that very easily, right, like I get this money in. But there's so much reality behind all of those like, hey, Blind stories are just the achievement reel or whatever. And I think that that's where I like to focus and that's where I can get behind the person and kind of get to know them more and so on. So that's I think one aspect I really enjoy doing. The other one and I know you've kind of seen some of this as well is the is the narrative documentary style stuff where we're able to tell a story from start to finish. In a well produced away and well produced manner. There's lots you can do with audio there, but I think just as a story, I think that that stuff I really enjoy, I feel like it can be so informative. Sometimes it can even drive discussion, right like you can touch on a topic that someone could we had an episode like that recently where I got I got done and I sent it to a group of my friends right on just a whatsapp group, saying hey, I just thought this is something you might resonate with you have a listen. And like, for half a day, like we were talking about the episode and all the things that happened because we're all about sex had kids who went through certain kinds of experiences. And I love that very, like I love the fact that you can do that.
Zainab :Right. So what do you think will make yours or anybody else's content that matters stand out, you know, despite? Because there are so many out there. So how do you try and make your content stand out from the rest?
Chirag :There's there's a couple of things. I mean, one is if we if we look purely on a technical standpoint, I think the quality of the production does make a difference, right? So if you're listening to something that is, you know, two people talking you can kind of already tell that they maybe they're not using the best mic so they're not using a good mindset of a nation say that's nice, but a good might set up or something or you're straining to hear some one of the people in the call right or one person's too loud. these are these are like small technical things. I think that makes a big difference to someone's listening environment, right. So most podcasts I listen to headphones on and so volume adjustment, it doesn't like tiny things that can be such turn off, right. And so then then, of course, you complement supplement that with things like music and voices and we do a lot of that kind of stuff. When we when we post produce where we're kind of very, very mindful of the fact that one person is talking for way too long and suddenly stops feeling like a conversation. You know, is there enough contrast in voices when you're transitioning this these are kind of the small technical things to try and do to try and create a better listening experience.
Zainab :everything right, I mean, you have to have technical knowledge. Yeah, there's so much more that goes into making a good show into the you know, just two people talking or maybe discussing something
Chirag :right away that's true in almost any medium right? If you look at even things like photography, you look at video you look audio, right? It's one thing to to know what to capture and what to say and what to do. It's another thing to how you go about doing it as well, right? Like, a simple thing like a camera angle being 20 degrees off can change the way the composition of a picture Right. And the same thing is true even in audio, right? Like when we sometimes we do like sort of hard cuts of hard changes in voice when we're doing. This only happens when you're doing a documentary style show. And without any introduction, we kind of kind of shock the listener into listening and paying attention or bringing them back. These are kind of tricks and things, some of you pick up some of it, you learn, and you do them because you want to create that that experience so that that technicality does really help when you're trying to do things at a more professional level or at a larger scale. So that that's one aspect. I mean, from a content site, of course, I mean, that that's this is not to say that storytelling, or we should, we should sideline the storytelling aspect. And I think, you know, good interviewing skills, and it's something we've talked about is so, so, so important, right? And you get better with this time, but I think if you're able to piece there's two parts to that. One is, when you're in the interview room, when you're talking to somebody, can you get them to tell you the things that you want to know That you think has value for the listeners? Can you tell? Can you make sure that they get that in an authentic way? Not in their rehearsed way, which I think is, is where I, I look at trying to create that difference, right? So invariably I find that if I have a two hour conversation with somebody, it's the second hour that I'm generally releasing more content coming out of the second hour than from the first hour, the first hour, you know, they're on their guard, they kind of giving you the answers that tonnes of people have asked him before. And that's when they start getting to weigh them down sometimes sometimes.
Zainab :So it's like, you want to make sure you're not reading from a script and you know, they're more authentic in their responses and you're getting new content out of them instead of the.
Chirag :Yeah, it's a combination of all of that. I mean, if it's some if I'm if I'm interviewing someone that has been interviewed a lot, I do go and listen to a few of their interviews to kind of get a sense of To the RS a person, but also what is the kind of stuff they tend to say. And then I try to avoid, like, I try to not get into that too much. So I'll skip over, like, you know, just a random example here. But let's see someone got acquired, they started a business. And then they got acquired. And because they got acquired, you know, literally every publication and every other show has captured them talking about the acquisition, like elsewhere. 95 minutes on the acquisition, that's an important highlight, we should talk about it, but I won't get into it. Because I'm like, you know that this is something that's something someone can get to literally anywhere. But I might get into how did you get into the room with with the people that eventually acquired you, which might be really interesting. And it's something they don't talk about, right? They might only talk about the final dollar amount, let's say so those are kind of things I kind of try and look at as much as I can. A lot of this happens, you know, it's all pre interview right to the research phase, where we try and piece things together makes such a big difference in terms of getting, you know, the kind of so in
Zainab :your opinion. So let's say we've gotten the right story, the good interviewers skills are awesome, everything's on point, but then you need some kind of marketing to reach the right kind of audience for them to hear you. Right? So... how do you do that?
Chirag :Oh, yeah, what I always say is, you know, at the end of the day, we're making content for listeners to hear to hear. It doesn't matter how good your content is, right? So podcasting is an interesting space when it comes to marketing because it's one of the very few mediums that is still very decentralised. So just to give you a simple example, I mean, if you look at something like YouTube, so YouTube is the one go to platform for everything video, right? The content publishers are there, the consumers of the video there, the marketing, the ads, every all of it, the monetization, the whole piece exists on this one platform that that eats that, you know, that contains 99% of the world's video or something. Right, portraits, on the other hand, like every aspect of the chain I just described is in a separate place. Right. So me as a producer could record things on any random equipment could host it on any platform. you as a consumer could listen on, again, a bajillion platforms. And then the the distribution the marketing happens on an entirely different platform, typically things like social media. And so one of the, in a way that there's, there's something good about that, because we've seen the, it's very empowering, that you have so much flexibility in a medium to to kind of create your content, but also to kind of host it to kind of publish it. The downside of this, of course, is that because things are not as consolidated discovery is difficult. You know, it's not like someone can go to a site and say, let me just look through all the podcasts that have been produced in the last, you know, like in the feed and see which ones I enjoy and then this one will link me to another one. Another one, this is not something you have, like the YouTube
Zainab :Right, do you think there are certain podcast directories that, you know, people prefer more than others, or they're better in terms of quality and engaging the audience.
Chirag :In terms of the platforms, not really. Right. So those are the platforms. Yeah, we do see preferences. I mean, pretty much the top two today are Apple and Spotify in terms of both the length and breadth of the directories, but also the reach that they have. And that's just, I think, a usage thing, right? So Spotify is pretty popular worldwide, and is doing really well. But Apple podcasts was really the first kind of consolidated directory that existed across the board. So it still maintains, assuming it's still very popular, but also is kind of the de facto directory, right? So. So that's kind of the two places where those things happen. But remember, again, that those are essentially directories, right. So, yes, both platforms are doing things to help discovery, right. They're creating curated lists they're creating. Spotify has, for example, a feature that that kind of judges based on the podcast, you Listen to what podcasts you potentially might be interested in, which they launched last year. Apple is doing a lot of curated lists, right? So they do things like, if you like, listen to in depth interviews, here are some podcasts in your region that are interesting. So they do they are they are trying that discovery piece is still on. But it's not close to YouTube. Right.
Zainab :Right. Right, get the point. So finally, what would you say about the future of this? You know, this much booming technology and its counterpart that is video podcasting. How do you think this is going to evolve in the near future?
Chirag :For what we do? podcasting is a bit of a, an interesting term, because forecasts are audio shows. Yeah, we're seeing we're seeing a lot of Yeah, they are unfortunately, being called video podcasts. And the technical side of me gets very annoyed by that, but unfortunately, that's what it is. No, I think. I think there's a huge growth area for something like podcasting as we can The number the other day. It means and I think it doesn't use a number that says there are about 8 million radio listeners in the UAE alone, or something or 70, something 78. That's a lot of people, right. And that's a lot of people that are potentially people who enjoy listening to audio content, although they listen to live audio content, which means that that's the growth potential just in the UAE for something like podcasting. And then when you say that we have content, that's regional content, that's, you know, stories about people that live in this part of the world and or expats and so on. It means that there's also content that resonates quite a lot of them. Then, of course..
Zainab :So let's kind of, you know, bring this to a little conclusion. And would you like to tell us about your top two, three tips that you would have for podcasting as a whole and especially for people who are looking into, you know, moving into podcast, the podcasting industry soon people like me.
Chirag :Sure. I think I think the one that I always like to say or tell people is have some kind of a plan. And that is a broad term to say, think about what is your practice going to be about, have at least some kind of central idea or theme and it doesn't have to be a central topic or it doesn't be one topic all the time. You could be in a certain space for kind of think about that. One of the biggest problems with podcasts, and even content creation in general is people drop out so the podcast face for 40 to 45% of the shows don't make it be on like an episode 10 which is when very telling number. Yeah, and because it's kind of a sign that either, of course, other things coming coming in the middle of things. But it's also signs that maybe there is no content place to go to anymore, right. You've done this thing, five episodes and now you just really don't know what to talk about. And I think that's super, super important to if you want to create something like this, especially podcast, and this kind of ties into to, which is a very long term payoff. It's a very long term payoff medium. We talked about how decentralised it is, we talked about so many aspects of the chain that you can have to get around and so on. And I think that because of that, you kind of have to have a little bit of a long term plan or long term thought process, right? Like it to be willing to get to doing all the things that help you build an audience and create your content and produce it well and get it out there and then do all of these things, which it looks easier. And there is no doubt that podcasts have a lower barrier to entry than something like video. But it's very important right to plan it, it's still important to put out good content, it's still important to then take that content and make sure people listen to it. So you have to do those parts of the chain. But then the the other advice I would leave people with is also that we talked about, you know, understand the technicalities of audio Something as simple as buying an external mic can completely uplift your, your, your audio quality and can completely change the willingness for someone to listen to you. So so there are very, very small things you can do that have very big payoffs in, in the podcast world. Something like I said something as simple as microphones understanding, you know, the fact that if you have different channels for each person, it makes again, it even better. So, there is there are two or three very tiny things you can do with details. So, you know, it's always good to understand the technicalities
Zainab :Would be planning, researching and then being a little bit of an engineer there. Yeah,
Chirag :Yeah. I mean, yeah, maybe, maybe that's a bit. It might be it might someone might hear that and think like, okay, that's a bit much. But no, I just mean, you know, understand that, understand what audio or audio is at a technical level, which means understand what putting a mic in front of somebody does. And what that sounds like and test and play with that. Because tomorrow when you're interviewing someone, you need to have that peace of mind to know that the quality of what is being said is good, right? You can be finding out, you know, a week later when you're when you're editing something that the audio from your guests is pathetic.
Zainab :All right, so I think with that response, I believe it's time for a wrap on this episode. So thanks so much for tuning in. And thank you so much for this wonderful interview Chirag, it was great having you on board. And we have a .... we have a very long way to go for the Zainab of vs series. Thanks so much. All right. So this was the Zainab vs series. Thanks so much for tuning in. And see you next episode.